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Janet: And get started and welcome again to our listeners. We are here at Mwanangu~Mntanami looking at a new topic and I'm so excited to have this special person with us. If I could have had you in my life, Alana, I would have had you a long time ago. Today we're interviewing a Sleep Specialist. Yes. Right as Sleep Specialist and Alana Chinhara and she's going to walk us through some of the myths that we've been, we've been fed over the years. Some of the myths that we believed, and then we debunked some of those, and then we learned something new. So welcome Alana. We are so, so thrilled to have you here.
Alana: Thank you so much, Janet. And hi everybody.
I am so pleased to be here, to talk about my favourite topic and my passion, which is sleep for children.
Janet: That is awesome. Yes. We need to talk about sleep for children. So, Alana, you're a Sleep Specialist. Tell us what do you do? What's a Sleep Specialist.
Alana: So just in simple terms, Janet, we teach moms and dads to show their children how to have a full night's sleep. Sleep is a very natural thing. We all just put our heads down and we go to sleep. Um, our children also need to learn to do that, but as something that is taught, to the majority of the children. It really stems from some of the habits that they learn from when they're babies, which we, you encourage, which are not unlearned.
Okay. So, um, what it is, is that if you are looking to have your baby sleeping, um, before they're like five years or six years where then muscles and the hormones and their body actually do the work for them, that is what I do. That is my specialty. I'll be there to show you how to do that and that most gentle and responsible manner possible.
I am part of an organization called Good Night Baby, South Africa. I am the Zimbabwe Consultant and we're a team of about 23 ladies and we love it. It's our passion. That's our love. Above all is just helping families because you'd be surprised, what a huge effect sleep has on people or lack of sleep.
Janet: Definitely. I agree. I agree with what you're saying because, um, for as long as I can remember, we've always heard that, Oh, now you have a baby. If you thought you weren't sleeping when you're pregnant now you're really not going to sleep. So, I'll probably ask the first question. Well, not the first question.
Second question.
Is there a sleep pattern that can be developed for an infant? Um, probably want to add on to that and ask if, um, infants develop/start developing these habits when they're still in the uterus because you always hear that, you know, the way they behave when they're in the tummy is the same way they'll behave when they're outside.
So, are there patterns that they learn, and then is this a pattern that can actually be cultured into them by people such as yourself?
Alana: Okay. So, um, I'll talk a little bit about a baby from when they new-born. What happens in the tummy and before that, we're not experts in that, about babies in the tummies.
Okay. So, um, I talk right through from when the baby's born. For the first 8 weeks of your little one's life, we like to call that survival mode. Okay, your little one is new. They're getting used to the world. You are getting used to a little one. It's a time for you guys to really just explore each other. Learn to, just to get used to one another, learn how each, how you respond to each other.
And, you know, just remember this child has come from a very small environment, which was mainly dark and controlled by you to a big wide world. So, they have to get used to the world. So, we call these first eight weeks, survival weeks. And in those first eight weeks, what typically happens is that we encourage moms to do what you can to survive.
Okay. Um, it's literally a day by day survival. Um, you need to feed your baby. So, a baby needs to eat to be clean, to be warm, and to sleep, and they sleep a lot, Janet, in this time, period. You know, the whole thing of when your baby's sleeping, you also rest. Yes, I encourage that because up until your baby's about eight weeks, even 10 weeks, some babies up until 10 weeks, don't have a concept of night and day.
Okay. Um, and that's nothing to do with anything other than the fact that they do not have the circadian rhythms, the natural metabolic rhythms that we have, or that children have from about ten weeks onwards. Okay. So, I don't know the concept of night and day, which is why you're encouraged. Um, when is the daytime feed your child out in bright light, feed your child in a place where there's lots of noise so that they know that this is the daytime.
Okay. And then obviously the night dim, the lights, make sure that it's dark. Even when you do a diaper change during the night, make sure that it's, you know dim, you have to be able to see, okay. What it is, is you’re trying to influence the Circadian Rhythms for your child? Circadian Rhythms are just our body's responses to nature, to the light and to the dark, to eating and sleeping.
Okay. So, for the first eight weeks, your baby doesn't have that. You are trying to influence that; you're trying to push it. What you would need to do as best as you can, is to just soothe your child to help make that transition easier into the world. So, remember, we've got the five S's of soothing. Okay.
And those are
1. Shushing. Okay. So just sh sh sh sh sh, okay. Um,
2. Swaddling is another one. So, remember that we're in a cocoon environment in the tummy. Okay. So swaddling mimics that environment helps them keep safe and secure. That helps them feel balanced and it also really helps to soothe them. Okay. Okay.
3. Then what we call, um, sucking. So that's all different things that could be breastfeeding sucking, it could be dummy sucking, it could be bottle sucking. Remember, not everybody has got the privilege to breastfeed for whatever reason. So, we take into account everybody and everything that they're doing. So sucking is the other S of soothing. Okay.
4. Then we've got what we call. Um, skin or, or stomach that's wearing your baby. Okay. Okay. So, it's just basically having a baby in a slang next to you, tummy to tummy. Okay. And the last S. You want to ask something?
Janet: Essentially what we're saying is, I am amazed, you know, you're the sucking! I just had to come in on that one. A lot of people tell you don't breastfeed your baby to sleep. Wow. You're saying it's okay.
Alana: For the first eight weeks, Janet. Yes, it is. How else are you going soothe a little person who doesn't, they're just also getting used to the world? Okay, so you need to do what you can. And a large part of it is the feeding to sleep. And for people who breastfeed it will be the breastfeeding to sleep. The only thing that we can really be cognizant of with breastfeeding because I know a lot of us are then told sleep with your child, have them next to you so that they can access your boob.
But remember, look at safety standards first. Okay, children until the age of six months are at high risk of SIDS, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Okay. You want to make sure that your child is in an environment where nothing can cover their face, in an open environment, that they can breathe and be well, so yes, breastfeed your child to sleep, but put them back into their crib.
Okay. Um, if they're going to lie next to you, there are different little snuggly things. I think they're called snakes, safe snugs. Um, there are various names for them, but you put your child in there so that they are not within your space. Mommy's don't squash babies. Okay. However, there is a true risk that whilst you’re deep in sleep, which you will be as a, as a new mom, a nursing mom. With the hormones from breastfeeding, you can get into pretty deep sleep. Okay. Yes, you are tired. And so, what happens is that the bed covers could cover your baby and that's nothing that we want. Those are not the things that we're looking for when you've got a new baby. Okay. So yes, for the first eight weeks Janet, SURVIVE.
Janet: [Oh yeah, I did that.
Alana: And then from eight weeks, maybe I'm pre-empting one of your questions, but when, when you start getting to eight weeks, you can start introducing some good sleep hygiene for your baby. Okay. And those are small things like. Introduce a bedtime routine. Okay. They still don't quite have the hormones that work with the bedtime routine at that point, because those only developed at that 10, 12-week Mark, but it's a good thing to get into with your baby.
A lot of people love to bath children in the morning. No, bath your baby in the evening.
Janet: Oh, I used to do that!
Alana: You used to bath her in the evening or in the morning?
Janet: I used to bother her in the evening. Um, and with my son, I don't know if that was a wrong thing or not, but I would wipe him down when I wanted to sleep, you know, and it's somewhat simulated, um, taking a bath and then you'd feel all warm and fuzzy and everything and all the Vaseline.
And then you just suckle in he'll fall asleep.
Alana: Yeah. And that's it. So, so I'm sure you're remembering that one is a bit older because what happens when you do that? So yes, you can also wipe down your child. We're in Africa, so, we're fortunate that it's not freezing so a bath is good because also at that point, your baby's been sweating a little bit, not smelly, sweat, but sweating all day long.
Okay. Um, but at that about 10, 12-week, Mark, your baby stops producing a hormone called Melatonin. Melatonin peaks at the point that you warm your child up in a bath or when you wipe them down and then you then change their clothes, which is a bit of a cooler temperature. And then what happens is that it picks Melatonin as a sleep hormone.
Okay. And that's why like, you're saying your son would then snuggle down, suckle and go to sleep. But that hormone really only develops from about 10 to 12 weeks, I would say closer to 12 weeks. However, like I'm saying to you, your baby starts forming the little circadian rhythms from about eight weeks, which now means that they know daytime its daytime and night-time is night- time.
Janet: Wonderful. You still had one S.
Alana: I have forgotten the ones that I said in the first place. Let me try and remember.
Janet: No, it's okay. We can carry on. I'm sure. You'll figure it out. Um, and then, and then chime in with that one. So, let me move on right onto the next question. Right? One thing that I was told was if you want your baby to stay sleeping, stay asleep, whatever time of day, whether night or day, um, you need to make them sleep in a noisy room.
Tell me, it ain’t true?
Alana: Um, you know what it is about the noisy room? Like I'll say it's more just than the first eight weeks in the first place. And it's just to maybe differentiate between night and day. Um, children should be asleep in an environment that's not too noisy. Okay. So sometimes you can't help it. I mean, if you live in a street with noise, and cars driving past you, can't not make those calls noisy.
Similarly, if you live on a farm or even in a place where it's generally silent, and if it's one child, it will be silent. Cause, you know, if you've got one child in the house, there's no one else to make noise. So generally, a silent, um, what you want to do just to create a perfect sleeping environment at all times.
And if you do have a noisy environment, Janet, that you can use what we call white noise. White noise, there are lots of apps of white noise that you can use drowns out, any excess noise that you think may be affecting your baby. Okay. Um, what I find is the most difficult age that doesn't like a noisy environment during the daytime is actually that four to six-month age range.
And the reason for that is because of the leap that they're going through at that time. They are going through a huge developmental leap, and it's actually a leap where all of a sudden, the world is there. Whereas the world was a bit of a blur and there was nothing much happening. All of a sudden, they can see, they can hear sounds and link those sounds to things that they are seeing. They know that if they hear a song and they turn around, um, so it's a very highly stimulated stage of their life. Speech starts developing, not that they're talking, but they know now if they go [ooo aaa ], that's talking. Okay. So now a child like that, you put them down in the afternoon where there's lots of noise is not going to settle.
And it's just the age. Okay. So that's really what it is. Um, but above that age and below that age, you can put them down. If you think your child is sensitive to noise or some children, not some children have FOMO. It's just actually just part of their personality traits. Um, fear of missing out.
Yes. Some children do struggle because when they hear things, they're like, Oh, Whoa, and at some point, you will know your child. Okay. You'll realize that little Janet's the moment she has. Anything is all over, but then there are some children that couldn’t care less honestly. And that's also a personality trait.
Janet: Um, Wow. That actually reminds me of, my two children, because they were exactly like that, like those extreme opposites. Um, but it also then spikes another question in me.
Essentially, what then would be the kind of; …if the kids go through different, um, routines like that, as they grow, what then would you say would be a good routine to start with for any parent and what age?
Janet: I know straight after the eight weeks of survival mode, then beyond that, what are we saying would prepare the child to get into a good rhythm and to be less annoying.
Alana: Ok Janet (laughs), Children are not annoying!
Janet: I’m kidding (laughs)
Alana: I’m also kidding, Yes, kids can be annoying. Well, so like I said, eight weeks started using some bath time routines, but generally starts making your child's life predictable. So that's what routine is, it's scheduling its predictability. And that just gives security for a child. Children don't know time. And they won't until they're like seven years old.
Mind you. So, if they've got a good routine and predictability and schedule, and they know what's happening next, that just makes your child feel secure. From the age of about 12 months oh, sorry, not 12 months, 12 weeks. You can start introducing good sleep hygiene. Um, the thing that you're talking about, don't let your child fall asleep on the boob.
Those are type of things that you can start trying now to really enforce and implement. Okay. Um, at goodnight we say that if your child is 16 weeks, Uh, and seven kgs and above they, are ready for a full night of sleep.
Janet: Oh really?
Alana: But it obviously stems from teaching them how to have that full night, teaching them to fall asleep by themselves.
But from 16 weeks, and seven kgs; I'm 16 weeks is developmentally ready and seven kgs; is the stomach is now big enough to have food. Enough food in their tummy to last the night. From there, you can have a full night.
Janet: Now tell me if the child has to fall sick. Is there anything that can disrupt this pattern?
Alana: So, when your child is sick, do everything you can to look after your baby. We say all rules out the window, do what you must. And often doctors we'll say so if it’s like diarrhoea. Your doctor will say, please can that child; if it’s a breastfed child, keep your baby on the boob.
Make sure they're getting lots of fluids and hydrating. I mean, do what you can for your baby. You can get back on track when your baby's better, but I always hasten to talk about my definitions of sickness and that is things like vomiting, temperature, diarrhoea, which are the typical sicknesses for children.
I mean, of course, there's other things that could happen, but let's talk about the three typical ones. Um, if your child just has a bit of a snuffle and a cough. That's not really sick. Yes. They're a little bit unwell, but it's not sick in such a manner that you would have to come out of all your routines and come out of all the good things that you've shown your child.
Um, but, temperature, diarrhoea, vomiting, do what you must for your baby. Uh, Janet, look after your child, we want the safety and wellness of your child first. They will catch up with their sleep. The moment that they're better.
Janet: Okay. So essentially you have to somewhat retrain them. After they are better.
Alana: So, we call it getting back on track.
Is this reminding them of what they know already? That's all. So, you just become a little bit strict, and then they will remember what they need to do. Um, in relation to just, you know, when your baby is sick, just watch out that you're not, so a child who has got a bad temperature. You also don't want to pull that child into bed with you because you will actually make them hotter.
Especially if you're sandwiching between two parents. I mean, that's, that's definitely the perfect space for heat. You know, um, but then there are other things, like with my girls, if my girls aren’t breathing properly, I will pull them into bed with me for instance. And it's just because they aren’t properly breathing, but then we get back on track as soon as they are better.
Janet: All right. No, I understand. Well, for me, I'm, I'm one of those bad habits people. I slept with them right through, up until they were old.
I think my five-year-old, my daughter got out of the bed when she was five because there was a new baby in town. But anyway, that’s a story for another day, let's talk about crying it out.
Let's talk about cry it out. I mean, I always heard about, is it Ferber’s Method? The Ferber’s treatment/method where children should be left to cry it out and then they'll self-soothe and then though they'll be fine. And then, they learn to sleep by themselves. What are your thoughts on that?
Alana: So, at Good Night, we, so for one, we don't call ourselves a sleep training organization for one, which is sleep training as associated a lot with things like that, like the Ferber's method and, and just generally very aggressive manners to get your child to sleep.
We also are not a cry out organization. Okay. What we do is we do everything, um, in the most responsible manner possible for our children. Cry it out, you know what you could. For my first, let me tell you the story. It'll actually help me to explain.
Um, so I'll tell you my story around cry out for my first. I was just so exhausted by the time she was one that I thought, let me wean this child. So, I weaned her. Cause I, I figured in my head that will give me full nights. It did not give me full nights. And it's just because of the complexities of the way sleep works.
So we wean and I'm still waking up because now I'm the one who has to lay next to her or stroke her head till she's asleep or whatever it is. Um, and then I thought, no, this is it's a lot. Okay. So, then I googled, and what did I stumble upon? Cry It Out, Ferber’s Method, Cry It Out method. And then that's what I did. It was, you know what it works, Janet.
It did. And it worked. And I always say, I'm not going to be the person who tells you it doesn't work. It works because I did it, but it was a harrowing three-day experience for myself. I'm hoping she was young enough to not notice how harrowing it was, but I don't even think I really ate. You know, because I was so upset in the whole process.
So yes, Ferber’s works. Um, stuff you read on the internet, it works. Okay. But it also just depends. So Good Night, though, what we, what we do is that we give support through the methods that we recommend that specially formulated for your family. Okay. And then it’s for varying situations. How many children are in your family?
How many people are doing the bedtime routine? I mean, there's a lot of things to consider when we come up with a method that's specifically for your family. So even the information we send out 10-page questionnaires to families. Which give detailed information…Yes. It's your child. It's your precious thing.
So, we want to get it correct.
We are not going to pull things from the internet and chuck it in your face. No, we're not. So, it's a detailed process. It takes me time to come up with a plan. Okay. And then from there, we support you through the plan and that's what I do with my second child. So, I did it with My MD now, uh, her name is Jolandi and she's the one who was my consultant and that's, she did everything, which is what I do now for me and my baby.
And the process was a lot gentler. A lot more responsible. I was comfortable. I was happy. My baby, she, I think my second night she was sleeping. It wasn't as harrowing a process, and I understood at every single step of the process what was happening, why it was happening and if it was okay for those things to be happening. And if it wasn't at any given point as a consultant, I'm very quick to say, no, this is not what we're expecting.
This is not okay. Let's intervene and let’s carry on. So, it's a very responsible and well thought out process that we follow at Good Night.
Janet: Oh, that's wonderful. At least, at least there are methods that are gentler and less harrowing than cry it out. I couldn't, I just did not even try because. I just couldn't.
Alana: I didn’t eat for three days so you can imagine.
So, I see why you couldn't.
Janet: Definitely, I don't think, I don't think I have the stomach for it. Um, but you know, as, as we're winding down, I want, probably for you to tell us some of the three probably main issues that you see families doing that affect children's sleep and possibly, um, like. Your input to that as well as the kind of solutions that we can think through. Yeah.
Alana: So I'll break it into the first two. I'll break them into age groups. Um, Janet. So, the first big thing I find with children that are below 18 months is that we've just continued with all of those five S's that we're talking about right. Into a child who doesn't need them anymore. Okay, so I'll take one sucking.
Okay. Right. So now your child can only fall asleep on the breast or on the bottle or with their dummy. Okay. And the way that it works is that if they fall asleep like that, that's the help they need during the night when they wake up and they’re in REM sleep, which all children do. And so, as a result, you're going to have to be there, giving them your boob, or the bottle or the dummy.
Okay. So, a lot of the cases I deal with, are just because we've carried forward those five S's. So, like one of them the wearing, or the sling, the motion. So now you've got a child who really loves Babu or likes being rocked to sleep and initially easy. But now it takes like two hours before your child is actually asleep.
Okay. As they grow older, these are the things that happen. Okay. So, the biggest thing is, know that the first eight weeks, yes, we are in survival mode, but after that start introducing good sleep hygiene. And of course, contact any one of the Good Night Consultants to assist, if you need help, if you're not sure how to do it, we will certainly be able to assist.
From toddlerhood upwards. So, um, above 18 months, okay. 18, 12 to 18 is toddler, but above 18 months, you now have this little being who's got emotions, who can manipulate you. And it's a horrible thing to think your child can manipulate, but they can. Okay.
Janet: They Do! they do, I've seen it.
Alana: So you've got emotional development, physical development, motor skill development, mental development. You've got manipulation, you've got tantrums, you've got all sorts of things. And often they actually not even drinking the boob anymore or drinking a bottle anymore. Um, sometimes they still have a dummy, doesn't really matter. But what you find now is that now parents are lying next to this child. And it's part of that emotional development.
So remember a child goes through separation anxiety, and often the remedy for that is a parent will lie with their child. But now you've got a two-year-old who no longer really goes through separation anxiety, and you're still lying with that child. Okay. That then becomes more and more difficult. The older that your child gets.
Okay, so you either remedy it or you wait until they're five or six years old where they'll eventually get over it and be able to see by themselves anyway, just because their bodies develop like that,
Janet: We can't guarantee that when they are five- or six-year-olds, they'll still want to sleep by themselves. Trust me. I know I've had one.
Alana: No, you can't. You know what? I've helped children who are nine years old. Seven years old. No, you cannot guarantee that they will get over it. Okay. So, so you just have to watch it. And so, so it's just, it's just the things of the things that parents carry through. It's almost the crutches. And I think in both instances it's emotional crutches for the parents is the fastest way, they think to get a done, but it's not the most effective way.
And at the very end, it's never if a fast, so think of a toddler who you are not lying in bed with them up until you even fall asleep. People have those stories where they were lying with their child. Now they fell asleep and now you wake up and it's like 10 o'clock. And finally, you get, but it's already time for you to actually be in your own bed.
So, I haven't spent time with your husband or anything or with yourself, whatever it is that you want to do, you haven't had that time at all. The other, the last thing that I see is especially I find Zimbabwean parents. Uh, feel that parenting should be super difficult and it should be harrowing and it should be, especially a woman must suffer through her parenting.
Guys. Parenting is hard enough. Janet it really is. Okay. It’s not an easy thing by any means. However, there are things, that you can do to make it so that at least you can cope better. So that you're, you are rested and refreshed to cope with the challenges of being a parent, cause they're always different and different for every single parent.
There are no two parents that have the same challenges. Um, and that is getting helpful things like sleep. It does not mean you're a superwoman because you're up all night with your child every single day of your life. And you're so exhausted. No, you need to have your rest, so that you can be the best mother you can be or the best father you can be for your child.
And I think that for me is the biggest, um, sort of thing that I just want to reach out and say, there's no reason to suffer. Just like when your child is sick, you go to the doctor, you can't get help for things like sleep, or just like, if you're struggling with breastfeeding, you can go to a Lactation Consultant.
Um, you know, there are lots of things that you can do to help yourself just to ease a little bit. It's already hard guys. We don't have to do it in a foggy state of being tired.
Janet: That is so true. That is so true. And that last parting shot of yours was truly like, um, I think probably a summary of the life that I lived when I when my kids were still little.
I mean, I hardly ever slept. I went to work. I came back, I was tired. I would have to do the feeding and try and get the sleeping done and everything was mommy. This mommy that. I enjoyed it. Okay. If there is a thing like that going on up there, I enjoyed it and I thought to myself, okay, they're only young once, but I will, I will agree with you. It doesn't have to be difficult, you know, and you want to be able to treasure the good moments and you know. We’re like we're so susceptible to looking at the parenting process as difficult, you know, and, and looking at the child and saying they are difficult.
And sometimes it's not even fair because they are what we expose them to and things like that. So, this has really been eye-opening for me, and I hope someone out there is definitely going to feel good about this podcast. Cause I surely do.
Janet: um, we just going to take your contacts and we're going to put them into, into, um, a transcript of this conversation and just hope that people reach out because.
Why suffer when someone has trained in this and they can help you,
Alana: you know,
Janet: so, thanks so much, Alana, you're going to have to come back because right now it talks about infants, right. But then we have to talk about those five, six, seven-year-olds who are failing to get out of the bed. So, I am definitely looking forward to the next installment on good sleep here on Mwanangu-Mntanami.
Thank you so much, Alana.
Alana: Thank you, Janet, for having me, I'm looking forward to coming back and doing more focus topics with you.
Janet: Be blessed.
You can listen to our podcast here
This interview was conducted with Alana Chinhara, who is a Certified Good Night Sleep Consultant with Good Night Baby South Africa which can be found on the links below;
Email address: alana@goodnightbaby.co.za